Transcript of The Discussion

<burgoo> been thinking about blasphemy the past few weeks

<freeto15> go on

<burgoo> blas - hurtful, injurious... pheme - speech
<burgoo> we can hurt God?
<burgoo> with words?

<freeto15> yeah
<freeto15> with the intentions of the words
<freeto15> and what backs the words up

<burgoo> how, though? if God is perfect, changeless, eternal... how can he change simply because of something we say?

<freeto15> how do yah mean change??

<burgoo> well, at one point God looks on all he created and proclaimed it to be "very good"...
<burgoo> but later he "changes" and becomes hurt by something...
<burgoo> something He created...

<freeto15> changes in emotion?

<burgoo> doesn't sound like perfect, changeless God to me.

<freeto15> trying to psychoanalyze God is impossible from our standpoint²⁴

<burgoo> either God is changeless, or he's not... and if he's not, then why does the bible say he is?

<freeto15> but i still don't see where you are comin from

<burgoo> where i'm comin' from is blasphemy... speech hurtful to God... if God is changeless how can anything we say hurt *him*?
<burgoo> obviously i can see how it might hurt other *people*... but God?

<freeto15> i wouldn't call it changin

<burgoo> how is it not changing?
<burgoo> one minute he's perfectly happy, next minute he's offended by something we've said... that's not changing?

<freeto15> God has always been, his "emotions" have always been, he doesn't change, he lives

<burgoo> yer losin' me here...

<freeto15> yeah, i figured... :-)
<freeto15> but it wasn't my purpose

<burgoo> if God has emotions, how is he changeless?
<burgoo> if he's happy one minute, sad the next, and hurt the next, how is he changeless?

<freeto15> changes in emotions, dont constitute changes in God in general¹

<burgoo> so, changes aren't changes? that's a new way of looking at it...

<freeto15> i sense some sarcasm²⁶

<burgoo> what did you expect?

<freeto15> how can i explain this to you, Tryin to define God is so far out of our human capacity, how can he change when he is not under the laws of time, to change, you need a beginning and an end
<freeto15> he is not held under this law
<freeto15> he always is, and always will be

<burgoo> seemz 2 me like yer tryin' to explain the unexplainable... are you sure that's possible?

<freeto15> hes the only consistent thing i've known in my life
<freeto15> seems like to me you're tryin to question the unquestionable (if that's a word)¹³

<burgoo> heh... no, God is not unquestionable, except that His existence is unquestionable...
<burgoo> my impression is that God always answers any questions you like to ask... he always has for me. 8-)

<freeto15> okkkk
<freeto15> but you're tryin to define God..how is that possible

<burgoo> i'm not trying to define God... i'm trying to find out why others try to define him... i'm perfectly happy with the idea of an infinite God.

<freeto15> i think they try to define God because they need more than faith in order to believe..

<burgoo> people need to be able to see something to convince them

<freeto15> no, ppl don't need to see anything

<burgoo> the problem is that when they see something, they try to force other people to see exactly the same thing.
<burgoo> some times it don' work that way.

<freeto15> imagine this, you live in a planet that has infinite daylight...¹²

<burgoo> infinite daylight, gotcha...

<freeto15> everything is clear, you can see where you goin, where you've been

<burgoo> rat own

<freeto15> ok, so then (i hope this answers the question)..
<freeto15> imagine that someone comes up to you and points to the clear blue sky and says, "you know, there are stars up there"
<freeto15> what would be your reaction?

<burgoo> knowing what i know, i would have to agree... discounting infinite daylight, i'm sure there would be (as there is on this planet) ample evidence of stars.

<freeto15> lol, no you took this out of character¹¹

<burgoo> example... i can go outside in broad daylight during certain times of the year, and see saturn very clearly with binoculars... sometimes even with a naked eye.

<freeto15> oi

<burgoo> done it many times

<freeto15> you missin the point

<burgoo> problem is, i'm not as credible as most ppl... i can look at something and see how it's *NOT* what it appears to be very easily.

<freeto15> oi... ok, imagine you are a typical human eto15> oi... ok, imagine you are a typical human bein
<freeto15> a cave man even
<freeto15> with enuf intelligence to communicate

<burgoo> mos' people don' wanna think... they just wanna let someone come along on a planet of infinite daylight and try to convince 'em that stars exist, when they *know* that there are no stars in the sky...
<burgoo> see what i mean?

<freeto15> nope nope

<burgoo> right... caveman onna planet of infinite daylight might not know there's stars... unless he thought about it. that's my whole point...
<burgoo> thinking is important!

<freeto15> yes thinkin be good urgh⁸

<burgoo> thinking causes you to know a lot more than you do if you don't think ;-)

<freeto15> i'll accept that

<burgoo> God wants you to think... God does *not* want you to waste yer brain on not thinking.

<freeto15> true, point bein?

<burgoo> even if a caveman onna planet of infinite daylight was convinced that there were no stars, he'd be wrong.
<burgoo> heh... 8-)

<freeto15> right
<freeto15> i happen too like my caveman, he can beat up yours

<burgoo> so, *my* point is that a lotta ppl spend a lotta energy tryin' to convince *me* that there's no stars, when i *know* there are!
<burgoo> oot greet!
<burgoo> 8-)

<freeto15> is this creatin a sense of doubt within you, is it causin you to stumble?

<burgoo> creating a sense of doubt? i don't think so...
<burgoo> i rely on what God shows me... i try not to let what other ppl do affect me that much.

<freeto15> ok, so you are wonderin why ppl spend so much time and effort in order to disprove God?

<burgoo> er, no... i wonder why ppl spend so much time and energy tryin' to convince me that the only place to find God is in their tiny little box...
<burgoo> like i was sayin... God is infinite, changeless, eternal...

<freeto15> yeah, ok, i think im catchin on to where u r goin
<freeto15> or, where u at
<freeto15> i believe ppl try to convince others of their beliefs so that they could live guilt-free, this is not a definite sentence, just thinkin, let me know what you think

<burgoo> heh... actually, that's kinda what i was thinkin'... they feel more comfortable with their tiny little box if other ppl believe innit too...

<freeto15> ok, so we agree in this
<freeto15> nifty

<burgoo> my problem is that i don't see how God fits his infinite entirety into that tiny little box... i keep seein' God everywhere i look...
<burgoo> heh... like i said, i'm doing pretty weird this evening. 8-)

<freeto15> he doesn't fit in at all
<freeto15> ppl try their best to cram him in there, but it's like tryin to put a box in a hole shaped like a triangle
<freeto15> "if God was small enuf to fit in our minds, he wouldn't be big enuf for our needs"¹²

<burgoo> rat own!

<freeto15> yeah, i forgot the direct quote, but that's the main idea

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<burgoo> see that's what i was thinkin all along... i saw a hindu street festival, and i thought it was really inspiring that all these people love God so much... but other ppl i talked to said it was satanic...

<freeto15> do hindus love our God?²⁰

<jetgirl> why would it be satanic?

<freeto15> not our God, but thee God

<burgoo> i don't know that there *is* more than one God

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<freeto15> it would just be a version of idoltry,³ no there is only one God, i just worded it wrong²⁶

<burgoo> i mean, we have one God in three parts... the trinity... so does hindus, they just got different names for the trinity...

<freeto15> do you consider hindus christians?

<burgoo> i don't know, but they sure seem to love God.

<bud> i don't

<burgoo> they told me about a temple in india that is dedicated to when jesus was there and studied there.

<bud> that doesn't sound right¹

<freeto15> but, i just don't think its the right god, not the God we know and love,²⁰ but honestly, i don't know enuf about the hindu religion to have an active debate over their beliefs³

<burgoo> i don't know...

<bud> i mean jesus wouldn't study that in my opinion

<burgoo> that's the thing... as far as i know, there *is* only one God... maybe they know, there *is* only one God... maybe they just have a different name for him.

<freeto15> there are differences between what we know and what they believe
<freeto15> study hinduism bud?

<burgoo> why not?

<bud> yeah

<freeto15> no no no, this brings in the debate bout religions
<freeto15> religions are man made²

<bud> true²

<freeto15> we have a relationship with God²

<burgoo> there's a lot of jesus' life we don't know about.

<bud> also true

<freeto15> but we know what we need to know
<freeto15> the bible is proof of that³

<bud> true again but i don't think he would

<burgoo> why not?

<bud> it just doesn't seem wright¹

<freeto15> dont think he would what bud?

<bud> study hiduism

<burgoo> jesus seems to me like he'd be interested in anything having to do with God...
<burgoo> i sure am...

<freeto15> he didn't need to learn about God, he was God⁴
<freeto15> why would he study?

<burgoo> all jewish kids study... it's a tradition.

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<bud> exactly what i'm saying i don't think he would study there¹

<freeto15> the Areamaics have a god, they call him Allah,³ i don't love Allah, i love the Lion of Judah
<freeto15> all other gods, beliefs that aren't based fromt the bible are not genuine¹¹

<bud> alla is the budist god right

<burgoo> al'lah means "The God"... like i said before... is there more than one God? i don't think so...

<freeto15> i think so, i'm not sure
<freeto15> it was just an example

<burgoo> i don't think buddhists *have* a God...

<bud> maby not but that's what i herd⁵

<freeto15> there is only God, ppl may percieve him incorrectly, but there is only one God

<bud> true

<burgoo> there's that box again... how can someone perceive something that's infinite "incorrectly"?

<freeto15> they are just tryin to fill that gap inside of them, so they create hinduism, budhism, and others

<bud> that's wright

<jetgirl> how do you know that christianity doesn't do that too.

<bud> we don't⁶

<burgoo> but as far as i can tell, it's all the same God... it don' matter what you call Him, He'll come... 8-)

<freeto15> they cant percieve the Infinite correctly becuz their thoughts are pervesed and are based on what they percieve to be true⁷

<fizzz> jetgirl, u need to let Jesus in not religion⁸

<freeto15> i know Christianity doesnt do that⁶

<bud> tgood point fizzz

<burgoo> that's the thing, fizzz... i see the Christ in all of God's creation... thatz where it izzz... 8-)

<jetgirl> why jesus though, why not vishnu or odin, or baal or something?

<freeto15> read the bible, i dont recall those names⁹

<jetgirl> i've read the bible.

<fizzz> because there all dead and buried Jesus is not¹⁰

<bud> baal is in the bible though

<freeto15> true

<bud> i don't know the others

<freeto15> my bad

<fizzz> just remember the empty tomb

<jetgirl> they're not in the bible. they're hindu and norse gods

<bud> ok

<freeto15> baal was proven to be an idol, what was the name of the guy, Elijah¹⁰
<freeto15> yeah

<bud> yep

<burgoo> depending on who you talk to, visnu is just as alive as jesus...

<jetgirl> i would like someone to tell me why jesus is the man without saying basically "the bible says so"

<bud> hmmmmmm

<freeto15> but WE know the difference we know the truth, the life the way¹¹

<fizzz> and Jesus is the truth the life and the way²³

<bud> i guess no one can pruve jesus whith out the bible³

<burgoo> or personal experience

<freeto15> the bible is Gods breathe put in paper for the sole purpose of knowin him, how can we not refer to the bible

<jetgirl> why do "we" know the truth though. why wouldn't we be just as mistaken as, say, Hari Krishnas

<freeto15> thats a decision within you too make

<fizzz> well ask Jesus to show u and he will⁸

<burgoo> who's to say that any of 'em are mistaken? can't they all be right, if God is infinite?

<freeto15> noo^4,1

<burgoo> why not?

<fizzz> no^4,1

<bud> you have to decide for yourself who to stake your life on

<burgoo> what does infinite mean, anyway?

<jetgirl> can't do it. if everyone thinks they're right, and they can't all be, someone must be wrong, and it's an equal oppratunity wrongness.

<burgoo> that's like saying changes aren't changes... weird!

<freeto15> look and study their belifs then came back to see me

<jetgirl> i have

<burgoo> why should i study their beliefs? i already don't have a problem with it...

<freeto15> yes, anyone can be wrong, but not I, i dont know bout the rest of you, but I know,¹²

<burgoo> why can't everyone be right, jetgirl? it's a logical option.

<freeto15> not everyone's headin to heaven⁷

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<burgoo> how 'bout if you're not wrong for you, and i'm not wrong for me?

<jetgirl> that's a good option, but then why are people so down on other's religions. such as freeto saying that not everyone's going to heaven

<bud> the kant stand difference

<burgoo> that's the thing... i don't *know* why ppl are so down on other religions, apart from the fact that they don't understand that God is infinite...

<jetgirl> huh?

<freeto15> i dont admire other religions because they are causin others to stumble¹³

<jetgirl> see, that's exactly what i'm talking about. freeto is convinced he knows the truth

<freeto15> yes i am.

<burgoo> and christianity isn't causing others to stumble... you ever heard of jim bakker?

<jetgirl> and you would deny that a hindu knows the truth

<freeto15> no i havent
<freeto15> because i know the truth, there is only one truth^12,3

<bud> well he may or may not but thats not for any of us to decide²⁴

<freeto15> there may be no absolute truth except for God

<burgoo> jim bakker was a TV preacher... ripped a whole buncha ppl off and ended up in a big homosexual scandal... and then in jail.

<jetgirl> freeto: okay. well that's pretty intolerant of you

<freeto15> he wasn't a christian, come on¹⁴

<bud> you must decide on your own

<burgoo> he claimed to be one... lotta ppl believed he was a big-time Christian.

<freeto15> how can u say thats intolerant¹⁵
<freeto15> but he wasnt burgoo, you should know this

<burgoo> oh, i know it... and i knew it then, too... but a lotta ppl were fooled... how are we to know unless we figure it out for ourselves?

<freeto15> lots of ppl claim to be christian, or claimed to do things under the name of God,

<jetgirl> because you're saying that your *personal* truth is correct, which would be implying that everyone else is morons or has been lied to.

<fizzz> not amatter of being tollerant or in tollerant its using Grace like Jesus does to us¹⁵

<jetgirl> *are* morons. excuse me

<burgoo> like i said... if God is infinite, what difference does it make. i'm not trying to convince you that what i believe is true. i'm just asking that ppl stop trying to convince *me* that what *they* believe is true.

<freeto15> its not my personal truth, it is what i know, true, but its the only truth, i wish i can explain it better, but im not a bible major, it comes down to what you believe,
<freeto15> but only one belief is the right way¹¹

<jetgirl> but what do you think about people that don't believe what you do?

<freeto15> ok burgoo, then why are we havin this conversation?¹⁶

<bud> but she must decide for her self we cant choose for her

<burgoo> i don't care if they don't believe the way i do... it doesn't matter to me at all. i usually don't even bring up the subject unless someone else approaches me.

<freeto15> i feel for them, we pray daily that we can reach those ppl, we love those ppl⁵

<jetgirl> has it occured to you that it might not be in those people's best interests to be reached?
<jetgirl> and they don't want your prayers?

<bud> good approch freeto²

<freeto15> yes it is, in their best interest¹⁷

<bud> good poit jet girl⁸

<jetgirl> how are you so certain of that though?

<burgoo> right... what if, by reaching out to them with christianity, we're causing them to stumble in their *own* perception of God in some way we can't understand?

<jetgirl> thank you bud

<freeto15> we are sent out to bring others too God, for the sake of eternity and so that they may experience Gods love¹⁸

<bud> well not in there desire to be reached

<fizzz> Truth Jesus was born of a virgin lived died onthe cross and rose from the dead. did allah no did budha no¹⁰

<jetgirl> you know freeto, there's probably some Krishna out there thinking the exact same thing about you.

<freeto15> who in the world is Krishna?³

<burgoo> but what difference does it make, fizzz?

<freeto15> i dont really care, cause i have a peace within me²⁵

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<jetgirl> followers of Krishna. have you learned about any other religions?

<burgoo> krishna was a king in india, about 4000 years BC

<fizzz> a whole lot jesus is alive their not¹⁰

<freeto15> why would i study other religions⁸

<burgoo> he was also born of a virgin... and his father was a carpenter.

<fizzz> where is he buried

<jetgirl> to open your mind a bit, so you can understand other people better. same reason i'm talking to christians, to get a better hold on their point of view

<freeto15> why stare at a piece of dirt when i could look at the sky⁹

<jetgirl> okay, now you're bein' nasty.

<freeto15> no, i'm sorry, i was just lookin for a small noun²⁶

<jetgirl> but every religion has it's own sky

<freeto15> make it a flower then, a pretty flower

<danaburger> jetgirl, you christian?⁶

<freeto15> yes, but not every religion is backed by God¹⁹

<jetgirl> only as a child

<burgoo> nobody knows where krishna is buried, but the story i heard is that he rose from the dead.

<jetgirl> but god is not relevant to every religion. buhddists don't need one.

<fizzz> then u not saved then ?¹⁴

<danaburger> who here isn't christian?⁶

<freeto15> the God i know, the God that died for us²⁰

<fizzz> amen freeto

<freeto15> ok, then i feel sorry for buddhist ppl⁵

<burgoo> of course i'm saved!

<jetgirl> and i'm sure they feel sorry for you

<freeto> that could be, but at the end, we will all know²¹

<danaburger> buhdhist don't need one because their goal is not to be reincarnated when they die^3,7
<danaburger> life is about work for them
<danaburger> grace is free

<fizz> not if jesus is not in u heart

<jetgirl> i don't need any saving thanks much.

<burgoo> what if Christ is in your heart, fizzzzz?

<danaburger> God's grace is free, a gift²⁷

<burgoo> Christ is the infinite God, is he not?

<danaburger> amen⁸

<elbeth> i'm confused

<freeto15> we're just talkin bout man-made religions versus havin a genuine relationship with the one true God²

<fizzz> doubt is the devils best wepoen

<danaburger> Jesus said in history's most reliable book that He was the only way^4,22

<elbeth> yes thats true²

<danaburger> john 14.6^23,9

<elbeth> amen²

<jetgirl> why would chritianity be considered other than a man-made religion (other than "the bible says so")

<burgoo> i gotta go, pplz... nice talkin' w/ya 8-)

<danaburger> because the bible is one of the most reliable books in history^22,10

<elbeth> bye burgoo

<freeto15> Because, we as christians have a personal relationship with God,²

<bud> bye

<jetgirl> not particularly.

<freeto15> later

<burgoo> oh, by the way... any o' you wanna look @ my website, it's http://www.ebeneezer.org/ - Praise God! 8-)

<danaburger> and it also has the element of prophecy²²

<freeto15> God Bless burgoo

<fizzz> thats the key christianity may be a man made religion but the truth Jesus Christ is not

<danaburger> don't start with that burgoo⁷

<elbeth> God bless u

When I (<burgoo>) tried to log into the chat room the next day, I discovered that my IP address has been banned from accessing that channel... I wonder why?